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ssava
Creator of "The Dreamland Chronicles"


Joined: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 1122
Location: Franklin, TN

PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 2:45 pm    Post subject: Politics... Reply with quote

So...after voting for Bush the last two times and going with what the CHURCH and family told me to do (cause honestly...I just don't care about politics)...
I'm definitely going for something different and voting for Obama this time.

Of course being in Los Angeles for both votes...it really made NO difference since California always goes Democratic (except for Ahnuld...who I voted for too).

Anyone else jumping parties?
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kurowoofwoof111
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Joined: 17 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I just really got into politics and current events in the last year, and I'm really an avid Obama supporter. I've really found myself agreeing with his views on foreign policy, and economic management. About a year ago, I can't say I formed many opinions on my own, they were all influenced by other people, but I'm glad to make my own decisions now. Although I can't actually vote and what not, donating money and working for campaigns can really make up for that. Anyway, it's always cool to see people making up their own minds on issues.
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Jeff
Bit Part


Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Currently I cannot support Obama, I'm just not hearing anything that really connects him to what is happening. It's almost like he's floating along in this dream world that is only letting him see certain things that are happening. I cannot support his position on oil drilling, just because it won't affect the price at the pump next week isn't a valid reason for being against allowing drilling offshore of our own country, the future will occur and if it isn't planned for it will be much, much worse. I really don't feel like he's had enough experience with running anything to be effective as President, and to be honest he has started sounding a bit on the condescending side of the argument on issues lately. Plus, who is going to be the VP running with him?

McCain, I don't trust. This is a man that only a couple of years ago was "threatening" to change to the democratic party since he was being pressured by the republican party to support a couple of things. I have to know who his VP running mate is going to be. I personally would have preferred someone else to have the nomination for the republicans.

I guess that I'll be seeing what is said at the conventions and make up my mind after that.


Who knows, could be Kermit for president.
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tuxedobob
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Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 269

PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't vote. I'm not even registered to do so. I've yet to see a worthwhile candidate for president, and I simply don't care enough about lower-level politics.

That said, the media, or at least what I've been hearing for it, has been mostly ignoring McCain, and alternately loving and hating Obama. You know, the media that makes a mountain out of a flag pin. Rolling Eyes
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Jeff
Bit Part


Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tuxedobob wrote:
I don't vote. I'm not even registered to do so. I've yet to see a worthwhile candidate for president, and I simply don't care enough about lower-level politics.


On this I have to hit you. **imaginary hit**

Simply because it's the lower-level politics that make the most difference in your life. Most of the stuff that happens (or doesn't happen) in Washington is because of what is said and done at the lower levels of government. If you don't want to vote in the national-scale elections it's fine (just don't complain...) but take the minute or two to look over the local stuff, it's what is going to affect YOUR life in the next two or so years.

jeff
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tuxedobob
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Joined: 28 May 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only law I know of that has changed around here recently is the banning of smoking in most restaurants, which I support. Previously, I only visited restaurants that had a no-smoking policy, so it wasn't a horrible problem anyway.
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kurowoofwoof111
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Joined: 17 Oct 2007
Posts: 156

PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tuxedobob wrote:
The only law I know of that has changed around here recently is the banning of smoking in most restaurants, which I support. Previously, I only visited restaurants that had a no-smoking policy, so it wasn't a horrible problem anyway.

You must admit that National and ''lower level'' politics affect you vastly economically. As different Governors, Presidents, or Mayors handle economic crisis differently, your mortgage (or rent), taxes, and income will change. To deny that ''low level'' politics, or politics in general hold no impact for you would assuredly very, very wrong.
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Kargoneth
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Joined: 02 May 2008
Posts: 38
Location: The Abyss of Oblivion, Nightmare Realm

PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Note: I speak from the point of view of a Canadian, so this may not be relevant to United States politics. I have tried to keep concepts generalized. These are opinions only, I have not researched politics and it has been many years since I've taken Social Studies... so my memories and 'facts' should be taken with a 'grain of salt', so to speak.



I do not vote because there has never been a trustworthy person to vote for.

Despite Jeff's words, I do have a right to complain about the end result if I have not voted. It doesn't matter if there's idiot A and idiot B running for a position. It doesn't matter which one of the idiots get voted in. What matters is the end result, which is that I'm still being ruled by an idiot, and that's something to complain about.

A politician can say anything they want and mean to do it, but in the end they are still limited by their position. If the politician does not do as the party does, the party can throw that person out. This has the net-effect of causing anything (difficult problems and powerful solutions) which does not follow the will of the party to be cast aside.

The very concept of a country's leadership is a joke. You can't give a single person unlimited power (which would be needed to cause some necessary changes) because it can be abused and it becomes an autocracy. You can't severely limit a single person's power because they become a figurehead.
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Jeff
Bit Part


Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kargoneth wrote:
Despite Jeff's words, I do have a right to complain about the end result if I have not voted. It doesn't matter if there's idiot A and idiot B running for a position. It doesn't matter which one of the idiots get voted in. What matters is the end result, which is that I'm still being ruled by an idiot, and that's something to complain about.


You pass on your right to vote (Canadian or American) and you lose the true right to complain about who EVERYONE else chose for you. It's that simple. Vote, and you can complain to your hearts content. If you don't vote, just shut up, you didn't speak when you could have to make your difference.

If you think that the two main candidates are idiots then you need to vote for someone that you think represents most closely your point of view, I don't care which side of the political spectrum you are on. There is NEVER going to be a "perfect" candidate for any office, they are trying to get support from too many viewpoints to completely fit your specifics. It's the nature of representation by one person for a group or geographic area.

Make a difference, cast your vote, even if you think that you are just "throwing it away."
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John Theta
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Joined: 01 Nov 2007
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Location: Idaho, USA

PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most of my political views would theoretically make me a Republican, but it's been a while since I've actually liked most of the Republican candidates. For this presidential election, I'll probably be deciding which third party candidate to waste my vote on (taking it as a given that a vote for the main candidates is also a wasted vote).
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Kargoneth
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Joined: 02 May 2008
Posts: 38
Location: The Abyss of Oblivion, Nightmare Realm

PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeff wrote:
You pass on your right to vote (Canadian or American) and you lose the true right to complain about who EVERYONE else chose for you. It's that simple. Vote, and you can complain to your hearts content. If you don't vote, just shut up, you didn't speak when you could have to make your difference.

That's right everyone ELSE chose. I didn't choose the person. Doing so would make me directly responsible for what the politician does. Only if 'my' candidate screwed up should I not complain, after all, it was my fault that they got into their position so that they could screw it up in the first place.

Jeff wrote:
If you think that the two main candidates are idiots then you need to vote for someone that you think represents most closely your point of view, I don't care which side of the political spectrum you are on. There is NEVER going to be a "perfect" candidate for any office, they are trying to get support from too many viewpoints to completely fit your specifics. It's the nature of representation by one person for a group or geographic area.

Make a difference, cast your vote, even if you think that you are just "throwing it away."


Someone who most closely represents my point-of-view? I have never seen a candidate even remotely similar to my view. Thus far, it has been 'money-wasting this', and 'dishonesty and fraud that'. I realize there is never going to be a 'perfect' candidate, but with all this garbage we as tax payers have to fork out for, is it really wise to choose any of these people? I refuse to vote for such evils, lesser or otherwise.



I like George Carlin's ideals... they are very similar to my own (warning: profanity) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0u6lCBnRoHQ
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Jeff
Bit Part


Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kargoneth wrote:
Someone who most closely represents my point-of-view? I have never seen a candidate even remotely similar to my view. Thus far, it has been 'money-wasting this', and 'dishonesty and fraud that'. I realize there is never going to be a 'perfect' candidate, but with all this garbage we as tax payers have to fork out for, is it really wise to choose any of these people? I refuse to vote for such evils, lesser or otherwise.


(emphasis mine) Is it wise not to? Choosing not to make a choice is possibly the worst course of action when it comes to government. If you don't make that choice you are leaving yourself open to even worse decisions and laws and taxes being approved. At least vote locally since these are the people that affect your personal life most directly on a daily basis. Apathy leads to the erosion and destruction of your personal rights, and that is never a good thing. Even when you let everyone else make the choice for you, you are still responsible for those people elected to office, since you chose to let everyone else make the choice.
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Bezman
Star of the Show


Joined: 08 Nov 2006
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Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, you can also look at it this way: if (say) 70% chose to NOT vote, that would be a very clear signal that something is very, very wrong with the system. Many groups of power would then get into gear, both good and less good (read: organized crime), and try to offer alternatives.

From what I hear, rumors are that the southmost tip of Manhattan is completely under the mob's control. THUS, there is NO petty crime there. This is because they find and cap anyone that has a "detrimental" effect on their harbour - sorry harbor! - restaurants and other business in that area.

I am shocked by some of my friends that say they PREFER to eat in that part of the city, "because they don't have to worry about crime"!!! Shocked Shocked Shocked
Well, as a side effect they help the more SERIOUS criminals perform their crimes! (which my friends don't notice - and thus, it does not exist, ITO, or?) And by strengthening them, they encourage them to put pressure on even more law-abiding restaurant owners elsewhere?! Are they NUTS? What will happen if one or more of this kind of groups grow REALLY, really strong? I get chills down my spine when I think about it, and my thoughts make realistic descriptions of Nazi Germany feel like vacation.

Well, off of this side track and back to voting vs not voting:
in short, the amount of non-voters will be seen as potential votes for other (legitimate) groups in society, including other minor, already existing parties. When the amount of non-voters grows large enough, these groups will run polls and market surveys to see if there are many enough out there that would consider voting for them. If they find that there are indeed many enough, they will put their derriere in gear.

And my point is that the higher the number of people that don't vote, the higher will the chance of that happening be. So I DO believe there is a point in not voting.

EDIT: Oh, btw: I always vote. Except for church elections, "Kyrkofullmäktige". Razz
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Medron Pryde
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Joined: 06 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mmmmm....

Interesting forum. I'm the classic born again, evangelical, religious (nutcase to some...hehehe), individual that believes that Founders had it right when they limited the constitutional power of the federal government. Because of that, I've always supported the Republican part that preaches that message.

Of course, lately they haven't been ABIDING by that platform, and I live in a state that wouldn't vote republican if the devil himself put up campaign signs for the democrats. And we simply do NOT know enough about Obama's beliefs, other than the people he has spent twenty years working with, to know what he would really do in office.

So I think I'll be voting for Bob Barr for President. Smile
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Caldazar
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Joined: 29 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well...I'm a European and I strongly believe that the American election system is compleatly messed up which is one of the major reasons why Americans aren't voting. I mean you guys have a voting attendency below 50%. Imho this is because you have two extremely right oriented parties (one slightly more so) which once again comes back to your election system.

Oh and as for complaints of having an idiot run the country the problem is in viewing it as one single person ruling the country (and once again I'm berating the American political system because I don't think one person should be allowed as much power as the american president). It should be one party because one party is the view of many and that party should represent the view of their voters because that's what representative politics is all about.

And before I get any flames about this I would also like to point out that this is not a bashing about you Americans but simply about your ineffective election system.
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Jeff
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Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Caldazar wrote:
Oh and as for complaints of having an idiot run the country the problem is in viewing it as one single person ruling the country (and once again I'm berating the American political system because I don't think one person should be allowed as much power as the american president). It should be one party because one party is the view of many and that party should represent the view of their voters because that's what representative politics is all about.


The President really doesn't have that much power. The power lies with Congress (House of Representatives and Senate). The President cannot submit legislation to Congress and can only approve or veto bills passed in whole (no line item veto). The country is really run by Congress, but it is much easier to blame the President for anything that goes wrong.

Our party system is rather simple when compared to places such as Israel and Italy (who can have over 100 parties represented at one time) and honestly is designed as rather in-effectual on purpose.
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Caldazar
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well the president still has alot of power. I know the real running is done from the congress but the fact that he can veto bills is for one quite a powerful tool (and yes I know it can be owerruled). And I agree with you that having over 100 parties gets complicated or to have direct democracy like Switzerland but from watching US and to some extent UK I've also come to the conclusion that two parties yust isn't enough. Sure it makes a more decisive and powerful government but it also fails to represent the majority of the people (which I argue is why the Us have such low percentage of people voting). In Sweden we have 7 parties in Parliament and this might from time to time make for weaker governments with more compromises and I'm in no way saying it's perfect (far from it) but with that background I have a hard time agreeing with the american election system. I know the history of it and the reasons behind it but imho it is out of date.
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John Theta
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Location: Idaho, USA

PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The two-party system isn't built into the constitution or anything; it's an emergent characteristic.
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ntoonz
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There've been two parties almost as long as there's been a US government. When one collapsed (the Whigs in the 1850's), another formed to take its place. It's just how our dynamics work.
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TFBW
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Joined: 07 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You need at least two parties to have a meaningful democracy at all. The fact that you've been essentially restricted to two is partially attributable to your first-past-the-post voting scheme. To what extent that's true, I'm really not sure.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just looking today at the news, I'm sure that all of us have heard McCaain's VP choice by now. I think John McCain is attempting to woo a minority with this VP choice that minority being angry Hillary Clinton supporters. SHould something ever happen to McCain should he take office, I'd feel very insecure to see her as the Commander in Chief. One of John McCain's main points have been that of National security, I don't think that she would have the ability to direct the Department of Defense or combat current terrorist threats. I can't imagine her dealing with the issue of foreign policy at all, and I think that when the debates roll around, Biden, whoi has 30 years of expierence on foreign policy, will rip her apart.
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