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where everything came from.

 
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sorabezhad
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Joined: 10 Nov 2008
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Location: far from home

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 7:40 pm    Post subject: where everything came from. Reply with quote

Yes another one Very Happy i remembered this from a while ago. Me and my friend where puzzling over it one day.

so the question is, where did everything come from? it couldn't have just appeared out of nowhere. i mean, scientists say it was the big bang, and religious people say it was god. so if it was the big bang, where did all the particles that caused the big bang come from? They couldn't have just suddenly existed. its not really possible. and the same goes for a god, he couldn't have just appeared, he had to have come from somewhere they say he allways has been but he had to have appeared somewhen. So how could things just appear? they would have to come from nothing, which makes no sense because nothing is nothing, so if something were to come out of nothing, would that make nothing something? and if nothing is something how could nothing be nothing? Also they say that the universe is allways growing, whats it growing into? there would have to be some limit, so if you go past the edge of the universe, where would you end up? and if there is no edge, then is the universe round like the world? and if you fly up past the sphere-ness of the univerese, what would be there? where does it end? and what would be past the end? would it be nothing? and if it is nothing, how could the universe exist in all that nothing?
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TFBW
Deus Ex Machina


Joined: 07 Oct 2006
Posts: 1254
Location: Sydney, Australia

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's an awful lot of questions. Most of the answers are more speculative than empirical, since we don't get to observe the past other than by its influence on the present, and we can't see to the "edges" of the universe.

On the question of the edge of the universe, I understand that the currently popular theory is that the universe is a closed, finite space: if you keep going in one direction for long enough, you'll wind up back where you started. This makes it a bit like the surface of the Earth, only you have to imagine that the three dimensions of space form the surface of a four-dimensional hypersphere.
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lacavin
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Joined: 28 Nov 2008
Posts: 80
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to broaden your views, make you puzzle more:

Time began as the universe started. Therefore time has no signification before the Big Bang - hence the question "what did exist before" has no signification as before did not exist... Therefore even with a "beginning" the matter was always there, as the time did not exist before its existence. Similar effect with a black hole, where there is an event horizon where time stops - for an external reference.

But if you need an origin, the origin of the matter, a possible explanation is that, based on the quantum mechanics, no energy level is zero at all times (for instance it varies around zero) so it is possible to have particles coming out of... nothing, if this nothing has temporarily a non zero energy level. But don't ask about anti-matter yet, the LHC may answer more in a couple of years. Btw the origin of God is a question without meaning as the definition of God is that he has no origin, but that's theology.

For the growing universe, the same applies as for the time above - it does not make sense to speak of dimentions outside of the universe boundaries. Therefore the universe grows in nothing, and nothing is something without dimension, without time, so with no way to measure anything.
And by the way, if the universe grows at the speed of light, it is infinite for all practical purposes as you cannot travel faster, so the "edge" would go away from you quicker than you could approach it.

Just a couple of random tidbits of what the physicists are playing with in their spare time - and yes, sometimes a psychiater would help Wink
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TFBW
Deus Ex Machina


Joined: 07 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lacavin wrote:
Time began as the universe started.

But why did time begin at all? In fact, how can time begin? Is it even possible to give a cause-and-effect type of explanation for the beginning of time without the agency of some transcendent realm or being which gets the ball rolling? After all, if there is nothing prior to time zero, then there can't be a prior cause for the start of time.

lacavin wrote:
But if you need an origin, the origin of the matter, a possible explanation is that, based on the quantum mechanics, no energy level is zero at all times (for instance it varies around zero) so it is possible to have particles coming out of... nothing...

Variance is only possible within time. (That's what variance is: difference with respect to time.) If time has not yet begun, then there can be no such variance. This model has the potential to explain the generation of matter from the vacuum of space, but it can't explain the origin of time or space. In fact, it contradicts the earlier idea that "time began when the universe started" (if by "the start of the universe" you mean "the big bang").
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ssava
Creator of "The Dreamland Chronicles"


Joined: 12 Oct 2006
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Location: Franklin, TN

PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My brain hurts when thinking about this.
I often try to imagine going back in time and thinking...if there were no God. No Big Bang....what started it all? What would the universe be like without the universe?

Have sceintists found or calculated "nothingness"?
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lacavin
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TFBW wrote:
But why did time begin at all?
This was not the topic of my post. I just mention an actual theory that says that as time cannot exist without a reference (the universe), time was "undefined" before the beginning of the universe and hence the term "before" the beginning of the universe has no logical sense as before implies a defined time.
The "why" is an excellent topic already approached in the God's existence thread (The prima causa can per definition start things without requiring itself a cause and hence time).

TFBW wrote:
In fact, how can time begin?
How can it not begin?
My age (a measurement of time, perhaps the best as anyway I'm the only thing that for sure exists Wink ) began as I was born, and is not defined before... What may be defined (but with another external reference) is my birthdate, e.g. by reference to my mother's age, or the birth of Christ...
You can make a theoretical construct with negative time (say "I would have been -12 years old when this happened" - see the subjunctive that shows how shaky the sentence is, try to pronounce it in indicative to see what I mean: I was -12 years old), but it has no more signification than any other unmeasurable theoretical constructs (how much do -3 stones weight?).
It may get a certain signification by the fact that it implies another reference ("this happened") into which both events can be positively defined (similarly the -3 stones may get a certain signification if based on a pile of 5 stones, from which those 3 are now missing). But the beginning of the universe deprives us of that other reference by definition...

TFBW wrote:
Variance is only possible within time. (That's what variance is: difference with respect to time.) If time has not yet begun, then there can be no such variance.
I fully agree. This is why I said "if you need an origin".
This means: if you do not accept that time did not exist before the start of the universe and hence that the question of how matter was created (creation require time: before: not there, after: there) is nonsensical, then...
Obviously if you do not believe that, then time is there and random variations may explain it all... and it is not important that it is unlikely, as it had (time is running) a full eternity to happen - everything that can happen (however unlikely) will happen in an infinite time!

ssava wrote:
What would the universe be like without the universe?
Just to help you get by without a psychiater, you can take consolation in the fact that there is no risk of us asking such questions if the universe did not exist. Indeed, whatever else is happening, we can only observe a universe fit for intelligent life - otherwise we wouldn't be there to observe it. Therefore, it is no wonder that our universe do exist and is fit for our existing! (anthropic principle)
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Ayvielle
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Joined: 08 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forewarning: I'm not a physicist, I could have gotten details wrong, and if you are curious about actual details you might be able to find them on the Perimeter Institute's website.

I have heard that physicists have observed that in a vacuum, particles are constantly blipping into existence in pairs, immediately turning towards each other and blipping out in the collision. A relatively recent theory about gravity also has the implication that if there was ever no space with nothing in it, that is in a lower entropy state than some space with nothing in it, so the space starts expanding, although there is still nothing in it. Now, while space is expanding, even though there is nothing, this whole "particles spawning and blipping out of existence" process begins to happen, but because space is expanding so fast, the particles that spawn are moving apart from each other before they have the chance to collide and blip out of existence. So we have space expanding and matter spawning to fill it, to maintain the rule that entropy must always increase.

This is different than the idea of the Big Bang because (I think) the Big Bang idea starts with a huge amount of matter condensed into one point in space. This idea starts with no matter and no space.
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Bezman
Star of the Show


Joined: 08 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like to think of the whole thing in a Matrix-like manner:
If you program a "reality", say an adventure game, what is "beyond the edge" of that world? What was there before the adventure existed (=before someone ran the program)? Was the adventure world part of an evolution (programming) or by creation (funnily, ALSO programming!)?
Etc.

If you look at it that way, it all makes sense: the "God", "Universe", and evolution are all made up inside something of a completely other dimension, unreachable and ungraspable for all entities that exist within the created gameworld.

I think its the same for us. We are surrounded by something of a completely different matter and dimension, and we can never leave this reality and become a part of the other - just as the electrons, ones and zeroes that make up the virtual reality of the video game cannot enter our "IRL" world.
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phillip1882
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Joined: 14 Sep 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's this book called "the final theory". in it, the author hypothesizes that gravity is in fact expanding matter. (that is atoms double in size every 19 minutes.) as absurd as that sounds, he makes a lot of interesting proposals for how it could work. for example, the moon's gravity would seem to invalidate the hypothesis, as size not mass is the key component of gravity, but we've only landed on one side of the moon. he proposes that the other side has different gravity, as the result of there being different densities within the moon. (tough to explain thoroughly, but yeah.) anyway i bring this up because he has a particularly interesting perspective on the beginning and end of the universe. basically he proposes that electrons and neutrinos are the only fundamental particles, everything else is made up of them, and in the begining the universe was in a state of "pure energy" that is expanding electrons without any atoms. since you don't have atoms in such a state there would be no sence of time. and he thinks the universe will once again reach this state some time in the distant future. Confused
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